Talk:Singer-songwriter

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Biography: Musicians

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Songs

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Image clutter

Per WP:ONUS, "The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." [bold emphasis added]

With that in mind, I removed an image or two that I felt were overly cluttering the page. If there is consensus on keeping these images, then let that consensus here restore their inclusion. However, per the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia, that onus is on those seeking to have the image restored, and not on the side that deems content to be unhelpful or not beneficial to the article. Iljhgtn (talk) 17:37, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Woody Guthrie was one of the most important and influential song writers of the 20th century; his image must be kept!!! Removal of other images can be discussed here...Modernist (talk) 20:51, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
- I also removed the useless minor infobox that was added by a permanently blocked IP...Modernist (talk) 21:45, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  I agree that infobox was in fact useless, thanks for removing that. Though did you read WP:ONUS? I literally quoted WP policy above and then you proceeded to revert (again without an edit summary) to your preferred version of the page. Iljhgtn (talk) 01:57, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Removal of other images can be discussed here..." So the Guthrie image "must be kept!!!", but anything else is on the table? Who makes this rule? Please read WP:OWN in addition to carefully reading WP:ONUS again. Iljhgtn (talk) 01:59, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The images are not overdone! Leave them alone.Although I will remove one image of the least known of the current inclusions...Modernist (talk) 22:16, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You should have commented on this talk page prior to making your revert. That is not the right order of WP:BRD. We are on the discuss portion. However, I am forced to revert your edit again, and then, please discuss before adding it back! Iljhgtn (talk) 22:19, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear - you don't own this pageI have been editing this page for 20 years, edit in positive ways!...Modernist (talk) 22:24, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't claim to own it. But saying "I have been editing this page for 20 years" sure does sound like a claim that you do own it. See WP:OWN. Also, your unsupported by any argument editing encourages me strongly to bring this to ANI for your edit warring. Iljhgtn (talk) 22:27, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
For what its worth: I looked up the records: I've made 191 edits on the article (the most of any editor), between 2007 and 2025. I don't own the article but I do know the work of Woody Guthrie, Hank Williams, Bob Dylan, Pete Seeger, Joni Mitchell, and our other image inclusions; which are merited to being in the article because they do belong...Modernist (talk) 22:38, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I am thinking that a third opinion via WP:3O would be helpful here and I am going to look at requesting one. I do not like to waste the time of anyone, but you have largely insisted the page must look a certain way, "...because they do belong...", which is not a substantive argument beyond just saying "...because...". Iljhgtn (talk) 23:08, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion these images should stay, although they certainly can be placed differently if there is consensus. I welcome other editors to weigh in...Modernist (talk) 23:11, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I opened a WP:3O request. We can see if others may weigh in from here. Iljhgtn (talk) 23:13, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I’m here from WP:3O. The top images look very cluttered to me. I would move all down to the body of the entry (or delete if there’s no appropriate place for them), particularly since none are mentioned in the lede. If the literature warrants revising the lede because it mentions any of them (or others—I notice these are all from a similar geographic and historical period) as paradigmatic examples, then that could guide which images to use at the top of the page. Innisfree987 (talk) 23:31, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you @Innisfree987. That is a very helpful comment and inspires me to make more use of WP:3O when disputes of this type happen. Iljhgtn (talk) 23:41, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I took a stab at cleanup and moving images to where the article mentions the subjects at least. Please let me know @Innisfree987 if this looks better? I still think there are too many, and that one or two more could be removed, but given the prior disagreement and how contentious it got quickly, I'd like for a third person perspective to weigh in before I do. Iljhgtn (talk) 23:46, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Very happy to help—3O recently helped me in a similar situation so I was glad to return the favor. For the new version, I would just flag that WP:IMGDD advises against sandwiching text between images. Perhaps the four that form sandwiches in the North America, UK and Ireland section could rearranged to accompany the successive paragraphs where they are mentioned? I agree it’s a lot of images so I wouldn’t object to paring down, but I also understand how it’s difficult to choose which to delete. Part of the challenge is indeed that they’re all from similar places and periods; considering swapping one for a later or non-US figure could help. Innisfree987 (talk) 01:04, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
More great suggestions. I think the issue is that some editors might have an attachment to one image or another. I am open to others picking then instead of me, but I like the idea of bringing more global input. I would remove the Woody Guthrie one for example and pull in a singer-songwriter from Europe, Africa, or Asia (in another section). This article is already very North American dominant. Iljhgtn (talk) 01:25, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]